Welcome to episode 77 of Published! Today we’re joined by Cal Hunter, Manager of Marketing and Corporate Partnerships at Barnes & Noble’s flagship Fifth Avenue store in New York City. He also manages the business department. He’ll share insights from his experience as a buyer and explain what exactly bookstores are looking for… and what they tend to avoid.

The question at the top of most authors’ minds is “How do I get into bookstores?” Brick and mortar bookstore distribution is highly sought after and highly competitive. With limited real estate on the shelves, stores need to use that space effectively and stock titles that they know will sell. This means authors who hope to walk into their local bookstore and find a copy of their book on the shelf should start planning early if they want to get retailers’ attention. In our conversation today, Cal will discuss the benefits and challenges of bookstore distribution, as well as how an author can appeal to buyers.

Tanya: All right, Cal. Welcome to Published!

01:45

Cal: Well, thank you. I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak to your audience. Barnes & Noble Fifth Avenue, we really take an inclusive approach to books.

Tanya: Yeah, I'm so looking forward to hearing more about that. So why don't we start by having you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do.

Cal: My name is Cal Hunter. I'm the Business Development Manager at Barnes & Noble Fifth Avenue. And I also manage the business department, and that's important to note because we are the number one business book seller within 500 stores within the entire Barnes & Noble franchise. Business Development focuses on what are all of the segments that you might work alongside of, in terms of developing businesses and selling books. When you look at market segmentation, we like to boil that down to what we call the “SMERFS,” and that’s societal, medical, educational, religion, fraternal, corporate. So there's a lot of things that boiled into that, and it's a matter of rightly dividing each one and the strategies that go along with marketing to those specific parts of the marketplace.

Tanya: Interesting. And you are also an Air Force veteran, aren't you?

Cal: Yes, I am. Strategic Air Command.

Tanya: Awesome. Well, thank you for your service.

Cal: Well, thank you.

03:10 Tanya: So, I think the burning question that every author or aspiring author has is: How do you decide on which books you bring into the store? And I know there have been some changes in Barnes & Noble in the past years. Can you help our listeners understand, are those decisions made at the store level or does corporate have a say — just fill us in on that?

Cal: Well, at one time, it was purely corporate-driven. You had buyers that were buying nationwide for the stores. Under new corporate leadership, it now allows local stores to take more of a local approach towards what's important, what's the demand from each store. It's very difficult from a corporate level to take a one-size-fits-all when you're looking at a chain of stores so wide, so deep across the country. So store managers now have a lot of latitude, and it's about knowing your marketplace. Many authors will publish a book, and then they will walk that into their local store and see if the store will pick it up. One thing that really helps, you know, I think people have to understand that bookstores are no different than any other industry. In the music business, it would be rotation and airtime. In the supermarket, it's called slotting. How do you get best positioning in a store? Well, it all boils down to one thing: the sale, the demand. What's happening within that local community that's demanding that book? So the author can really generate that demand when they talk about igniting their following, and that's what typically opens that door in a big way. I do that a little differently at Fifth Avenue because I really try to make sure that there’s equitable placement in terms of female authors, diversity, equity and inclusion, because I believe that when you're appealing to a wider audience, casting a wider net, the outcome of that is wider sales.

05:13 Tanya: And that totally makes sense. I think the results have spoken for themselves. I know the stores are doing better under this approach. And of course, every market is going to be very different from another, so that localized buying power is a sounds like a game changer.

Cal: Yes, it is.

Tanya: Now, if a Barnes & Noble brings in a book, since this is not centralized decision-making anymore, if a local store, let's say, brings it in, what does that mean, if anything, for the books’ chances, in other Barnes & Nobles?

Cal: Once they shepherd that book and take it through from manuscript to actually getting it produced, and putting it out there… Now, in order to get it in other markets, it's about building that demand. And today, it's much easier, but at the same time, it's a lot harder, too, because there are great many more platforms to do it by way of social media, but one has got to now imagine that there's a lot more competing for the attention of the marketplace more, too. So how do you stand out? How do you differentiate yourself to break through? I see a great many authors doing it in different ways. You know, by way of podcasts, some of this going on, putting their life on pause and taking tours around the country and advocating for their books and speaking engagements and appearances and that type of thing. However you define it, it's about — You are the agent that drives the bus, and you've got to decide what is the best platform that's going to give you the greatest impact, to break through the clutter and develop a following.

Tanya: Yeah, so it sounds like it all really comes down to building that demand on the consumer end.

06:56

Cal: And we help out a great deal here, because I try to work alongside a prime placement of books: featuring with stepladders, featured placement on the shelves. Instead of library-spining books, I try to do more faced out, so the book itself becomes more of a banner, so you can see it, it’s readily apparent. So positioning and placement is also important. And authors have a lot of power when they walk into a store. I tell anyone, what is the primary function of a bookstore? It’s to have good books. Authors can walk into that store and say, you know, “I want to see my book, I'd like to sign my book.” And then after they signed it, you want to say to the bookseller, “Instead of placing me library-spine, can you face me out? I want people to see me.” So, get a little more detailed in the handling of your products.

Tanya: Oh, that’s a great tip. So that's an ask that they have to get into the habit of making if they happen to be interacting with a bookseller, is “please face out my book.”

07:54

Cal: That's right. And don't accept a bookstore telling you that we don't have your book in stock. Say, “Well, I'll come back. I want you to order it, and I’ll come back.” Again, bookstores exist because of authors, and you have the right to be demanding that you want your book on that shelf and you it managed properly. You have to really convey to that bookstore that you are behind your product.

Tanya: If not you, who?

Cal: That’s right! And you know, Tanya, another thing that many authors will come, we get them at Fifth Avenue all the time, they'll come into the store and one of the things they’ll ask for is “we'd like to do an event.” Now, if you haven't put in the sweat equity to get people out to an event, what's the likelihood of that event really being successful?

Tanya: Yeah.

Cal: So being here on Fifth Avenue, where it's pretty much the most expensive real estate in the world, does it really make sense to have an event where there’s no turnout?

Tanya: Yeah, probably not. So they've really got to hustle and make a case for it. Going back to getting the books into the stores in the first place. Are bookstores more likely to buy certain genres? Are there any genres that are unlikely to make it into stores at all?

09:09

Cal: Well, that's a good question. Because again, everything is on demand. And I think you understanding what your genre is about, for example, I get the question, how do I get my book in every Barnes & Noble? Well, you know, you have to stop and say that there are markets that are very specific. For example, with business books, more so in your business driven cities, that's where your demand will be. And in Barnes & Noble, there are, out of 600 stores, the top business stores are about six stores. So, do you really want your book in every store, where at the end of the month those books will not sell and probably be returned? You want to focus on those stores where your book will have staying power, where the market demand is. That becomes very important.

Tanya: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that's where a powerful publisher or distributor can come in, and help you identify those markets and be more strategic with the type of campaigning that one does. Let's talk about, I like to call them “debut authors,” not first-time authors. How often do bookstores bring in books by debut authors? And how important, if at all, is a record of sales? I know, oftentimes, authors are discouraged saying, “Well, I don't know that they'll take a chance on me because no one's heard of me, this is my first book.” Can you speak to that dynamic, a bit?

10:37

Cal: Debut authors, again, have to look at just what is the subject matter? Is that really in demand? Is the market really calling for that at the time? Sometimes, a book is written from a one-dimensional perspective, saying, well, this is important to me. How does that strike a bell with the masses out there? Listen to the media cycle, what's going on in the news, what is constantly ringing a bell. If you're in line with that — well, it's your time. Sometimes you're ahead of your time, and if that's the case, then you have to make the case for it. And this is where, when you say to a store manager, “I'm a new author, I'd like you to carry my book,” be ready to make that case. Explain why it will hit the market where the bookstore is and why it makes good sense. And then with that, be about touching base with those organizations, those corporations, those association groups that have an interest vested in that subject matter in the book. So you really got to light that fuse.

Tanya: That's the fundamental understanding that you have to gain anytime you're pursuing a sale, right? It's not about what's in it for you. It's about what's in it for them. I talk often about how authors can fall victim to this magical thinking of, you know, I did this hard thing of writing a book, and now the universe is gonna reward me because… the universe rewards people who do hard things! And you really have to snap out of that and realize, you've got to think about what's in it for the bookstore.

12:20

Cal: That’s right, Tanya. The win-win has to be upfront. And, I remember we had an occasion where a gentleman came in, and he had a cardboard-size cut out, true to size, and he said, if you just give me a table, let me sit by the door. I said, that's scary, man! It’s not gonna sell your book! But what you have to be able to take a very real, informed and honest approach to the marketplace be honest with yourself.

Tanya: Let’s talk about authors who have self-published. I don't know if this is the same across all stores, maybe you can speak to that, but do you bring in books from authors who are self published, or do they have to have a distributor?

Cal: You know, we do, here on Fifth Avenue. The self-published author, again, has gotta really take a forensic look at the clutter out there in terms of messaging and try to break through. Often it's a lot harder, because you don't have the toolbox of the machinery behind a publishing house that's helping to direct and guide the book. So it's a little harder, but the same rules apply. You know, if it's relevant and you can hit that target, you're going to begin to generate interest. And at that point in time, once you know the book that follows the demand. At the same time, don't fall into the traps, because there are a lot of companies that are out there that say, well, if you if you give me $20,000, I can put your book on the map. Approach that from a very informed point of view. Say to that company: Okay, I would like to see in recent years, three authors within my segment that you have promoted and you have put on the map. Let me see their media plan, the sizzle reel, everything that you've done to get them there. Watch how quickly they leave the room.

Tanya: (laughing) Yeah, there are a lot of sharks out there, unfortunately. And I think, like you said, doing your homework is so, so important to make sure that you don't lose a lot of time and money. Now, you mentioned earlier, the step ladders and some of the displays. I've seen your store and let me just say, Barnes & Noble Fifth Avenue has amazing displays, just a gorgeous window, certainly. And it's a high traffic area, so I understand why. How are those displays chosen and what kind of impact do they have on sales?

14:51

Cal: They're very visible. We rotate a lot of products quite often, but at the same time, we try to create kind of a destination department, because with the step ladders, you're seeing books that relate to our marketplace. You have a stepladder that's prominently positioned. Harvard, we have some other publishing houses as well. The idea is to make it visibly known that we are diverse and we are looking at positioning that written intellect, so that it's very visible, you don't have to hunt for it, it's easy to find. We don't mind taking a new author or independent author, and giving you the placement. But again, it's that partnership where that author is saying, I'm going to work to drive interest in my book, I'm gonna have people stopping by the store. We see that a great deal.

Tanya: Yeah, those displays are just gorgeous. And again, I want to thank you for supporting one of Greenleaf’s imprints, BrainTrust Ink, which brings diverse voices forward. You've been certainly a wonderful partner on that front.

16:02

Cal: I’ve gotta salute you on that, because you've got tremendous authors.

Tanya: (laughing) Oh, thank you. Yes, I do!

Cal: That's right, your product line is part of none. And you know what, it is so now, it is so happening, and it keeps pace, you know, it doesn't fall behind. It is contemporary and it stays right within the thought process of what's going on in society, what's happening. You can turn on the news, and you can find a book on that stepladder speaking to it.

Tanya: Absolutely. And to that point, what are the trends that you're seeing in the books that people are buying today?

Cal: Well, DEI is huge. Companies are trying to get that right. Entrepreneurship, working for oneself. That's another big piece. The other side of that is both concentrating on all of the pressures in life and the health side.

Tanya: Yeah, and you've also been very vocal about the importance of diversity in literature and promoting female authors especially. Can you speak to where there is still inequality in the publishing world, and what can be done to lift up authors from these underrepresented communities?

17:15

Cal: Well, I think it starts with awareness. Understanding just where you're positioned within the matrix, and how do you improve on that positioning? Everyday, I try to publish on LinkedIn at least five business books by female authors, and that came about by way of an author by the name of Margaret Greenberg, who told me that since the dawn of books, female authors have never been more than 10% of the bestseller. And I did check that out, actually, and she is correct. I think moreso, when you really dig below the surface, and you think about what the trend has been in terms of positioning what's important, make it a point to go into that store, and buy that book of those authors that need pulled along a little more.

Tanya: Well, Cal, you have been just an absolute wealth of wisdom today. Again, we so appreciate your generosity and the gift of your time. Do you have any parting advice for our listeners?

18:15

Cal: Greenleaf has the right prescription for what ails you, and that is understanding that to widen the field of books and interest and thought… that's the prescription for building this industry to a place where it’s healthy, really healthy, well managed and driven. Because it's all about great ideas bubbling to the top, and so you got to have a real incubator and an engine to do that. You built that incubator and that engine, Tanya. So I would say, keep doing what you're doing and intensify it.

Tanya: I love it. Cal, you are such an inspiration. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Cal: Thank you for having me.

That's it for our episode with Cal today. We hope you enjoyed learning a bit about how bookstores decide which books to bring into their stores. For notes and resources from today's show go to greenleafbookgroup.com/episode77.

You can also find advice for writing, publishing, and promoting your work in my book, Ideas, Influence, and Income, which you can learn more about at ideasinfluenceandincome.com. If you've enjoyed our show, please rate and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever it is you listen to your podcasts. It means a lot to have your feedback and helps us make sure we're answering your publishing questions. A big thank you to Eleanor Fishbourne and Madison Johnson who produced the Published podcast, and we will be back next month with another episode.

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Cal Hunter is Manager of Marketing and Corporate Partnerships at Barnes & Noble’s flagship Fifth Avenue store in New York City. As Business Development Manager, he also oversees the business department — an impressive role, given that the Fifth Avenue location is the number one business book seller out of 600 Barnes & Noble locations.