In this episode, we’ll talk about what authors should look for in an editor, when it makes sense to work with a ghostwriter, and how the matchmaking process works behind the scenes at a publisher.

Today we’re joined by Rose Friel, a publishing consultant at Foreword Literary Consulting. With a background working with literary agencies and hybrid publishing, Rose knows exactly what goes into a great publishing partnership and how publishers match writers with the right professionals to shape their work.

Transcript has been automatically generated.

Welcome to Published, a podcast by Greenleaf Book Group, where we'll discuss the ins and outs of the publishing industry, from writing a book and finding the right publisher, to gearing up for a book launch. And now, here's your host, Greenleaf Book Group CEO, Tanya Hall.

Welcome back to Published. Today, we're joined by Rose Friel, a publishing consultant at Forward Literary Consulting. With a background working with literary agencies and hybrid publishing, Rose has helped countless authors refine their publishing strategies and bring their stories to life with tailored introductions to ghost writers, editors, publishers, and more. She knows exactly what goes into a great publishing partnership and how publishers match writers with the right professionals to shape their work. In this episode, we'll talk about what authors should look for in an editor and how the matchmaking process works behind the scenes at a publisher. If you enjoy our show and you'd like to be included, please take a moment to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It means a lot to have your feedback and it helps us to make sure we are answering your publishing questions. Now, let's dive into the interview. All right, Rose, welcome to Published.

Thank you so much for having me, Tanya.

Yeah, I'm really excited about this one. Maybe start off by telling our listeners who you are and what you do.

Yeah. I work with authors to understand their publishing options. A lot of it's informed by the literary agency work that I used to do. And then I bring that to both a traditional submission process and also a hybrid vetting and comparison process. I want them to make informed, confident decisions on the market.

Yeah, that's so important. And I think there's a lot of misinformation out there. So people like you are doing a great service to those authors trying to find their way. And today we're focusing very much on sort of the front end, choosing the right partner, shall we say, for crafting. So I think a lot of authors are comfortable with the fact that they will need an editor, maybe even a ghostwriter, but perhaps don't know the full range of what might be offered within that suite of services. So can you talk a bit about those different types of editors and ghostwriters and how an author might start to hone in on the right fit for them?

Absolutely. So understanding that an editor is an umbrella term. There are so many different specializations that go in there. You've got your developmental editor who takes the big picture stuff, make sure that the structure flows, that there's a narrative art that the specifically non-fiction reader can understand the education that they're getting through it and follow the learning process, grasp all the points in a flow that is accessible. Line editor, you're focusing on your voice. You go down another tier, you've got poppy editor, they're looking at the grammar. They're not going to protect the voice as much, so sometimes people choose to do one or the other. Get the extra i's, so honestly, in my opinion. Then you're going to go to proofreading, which is your typographic review. It's not caring about the meaning, the connotation of the words. It cares more that your the is T-H-E instead of T-E-H. Those are your editors. But then on the front side, if you need someone to help you write it, totally understandable. Writing is a skill. We undervalue it as a society. So a ghostwriter is someone who takes you all the way through. If you want to try it yourself and you want to go for it, but you also want an executive overview, essentially, book coach, that's who you're looking to work with. So no matter what you have an array of people to work with at every stage, it really just depends on where are you, what have you written, and what are you looking to get out of the relationship.

Yeah, good points. And I think sometimes authors are surprised to understand that there are these sequential steps to the editing process. Like, of all these editors that Rose just mentioned, you're not just going to pick one. You will work with several, if not all of them, during that process.

Yes, and honestly, you don't want the same person to do all of it, right? Like, your developmental editor is just as creatively invested in the project, just like your ghostwriter is. They're not going to make the same great proofreading corrections that someone who is fresh to it and has that scrutinizing set of eyes is going to make.

Right. Yeah, definitely. New set of eyes at every stage is our house practice as well, so we're totally aligned there. And so for the author who's listening to this and maybe they've got a draft that they know needs some work but can't quite put the pencil down because they don't want to show it to someone just yet. What do you tell people in terms of when to involve an editor if they're trying to get their work professionally published?

When you have a draft, you can bring an editor. And honestly, if it's not a great draft or it's muddled or it's way too long or too short, just tell them that because every editor has their own preference for starting points, like what they like to see. If I hop on a call with an author, I know I'm not an editor to that degree. But I would rather then just start talking at me and telling me everything that they're dreaming of for this book, then send me a carefully edited email, because I can get more of the nuance out of it. Same thing with editors. Some of them want you to come in with an edited draft or one that you've looked at at least twice, not just rambled at. Some of them want to do that doctoring deep tissue work.

Yeah, I think that's definitely true in my experience as well. And another thing to bear in mind is that editors and really most publishing professionals are trying to look at the content versus the execution. So I think if an author remembers that we're really honing in, especially in this sort of screening stage of what is the message, does it fit into our wheelhouse as a publisher in terms of the genres that we publish? Is it hooky? Does it have an interesting angle? So we're not looking at your grammar and even the structure, because we know those things can be addressed. So it's actually helpful if someone comes to us earlier in the process, rather than once they've gone through what they think are pretty final stages of editing, because we may likely want to move things around or do some things to make it have more market appeal.

Of course, of course. The one thing you can't do is read a mind, right? Like you have to have a way to ask questions throughout all of it. So if they're coming to you with not a single thought given other than I want to read a book, probably not going to work.

Yeah, I make the joke. I want to be a thought leader. Tell me what to think.

Yeah, we have a bit of that going around.

Yes. So what's the matchmaking process like? There are lots of different editors that we just established in terms of their capabilities, but there are also different, let's say, personality types with editors and certainly with authors. So I know you do a lot of this. What does that matchmaking process look like for you?

Yeah. So for me, I'm looking at the profile, essentially. Like I'm looking at the big picture components of what the book is about, who the author is, and what they're looking to gain out of the process. And I know a lot of authors can be going, I want someone who has written or edited books that have multiple different overlapping subject matters. And that they're an expert in this, and that they've written bestsellers. And I usually debunk all of that on the first fall. I'm like, hey, bestselling is bestselling. That's marketing. We'll tackle that in the long run. If you're looking at someone who has the expertise in your space, you are the expert. They're there to ask the good questions. They're there to make sure that you sound authentically like yourself. They're there to make sure you don't embarrass yourself, too. Like, let's be real. And they don't need to know everything that comes into the project until you are ready to discuss it and craft it, that chapter, that section, the whole book, whatever it is. So I look at those three components, and then I also start to poke holes. What are the potential problems that could come up? One major thing, I know we kind of touched on it in our own conversation, but one major thing that people don't consider is, okay, what's your communication style? What's your collaboration style? How are you going to relay feedback and receive feedback? That's a huge misalignment that happens a lot of the time. So a really practiced team with matchmaking is going to keep an idea, like a pulse, make sure that the personalities align. Someone who's just hiring on Upwork, probably not going to get the same level of personalization there. I would also say that when I'm in the seat, I also have relationships with all of the editors and all of the ghost writers, and I'm sure your team does as well with whoever is working on your projects. That's crucial because it also means that we can bring the best people to the project and understand their communication patterns and their interests. One thing that I always look for is, yeah, you might not be a subject matter expert, editor, ghost writer who's coming into this project, but are you curious about it? Or can you riff enough about it colloquially that it makes someone feel comfortable and talk more? A lot of these thought leaders, like they're so entrenched understandably in what they do that they cannot really break out and see, you know, maybe that's a learning curve for some people. Or, hey, you should understand this because I'm already at that level. And to bring someone in who's curious, who asks the question, who wants to expand in that space, it adds a level of vigor and excitement to a project.

Yeah, that's a great point because in that sense, the editor is really serving as a proxy for the reader. It's really difficult for an author to get out of their own way sometimes. And I had this problem when I wrote my book because I have a heavy distribution background and that is the voodoo magic part of the publishing industry that nobody understands. And so I really enjoy trying to explain boring things like the supply chain. But that's not what my book is about. So I had to sort of wheel back and be like, my reader is not interested in the supply chain, only I am. So that's what a good editor helps you do.

Absolutely. They are your first reader. They are your first listener. They're your first audience. And if they can bring that curiosity and actual bite into the conversation, it's great. That's what you want.

Yeah, it's really powerful. So you mentioned kind of working style and how you like to receive feedback. Are there other things that an author should think about in terms of proactively communicating to a matchmaker or even a publisher so that they align with the right editor for them?

Schedule. Oh my goodness. Tell them your schedule. Tell them when you're going to be away. Tell them when you're at capacity. I think one thing that people underestimate is that publishing is not just a financial investment business. On the whole, it's not just bottom lines. It's not moving copies. It's really your soft costs that come into it. It's your creative investment and your time and your attention. What are you giving up out of your day or what are you carving space out to make room for this book? If you are at your absolute capacity and you're like, I cannot do anything other than yes, no's, I can't do new, lost answers, tell them. I would love to hear what you think on this one. I think about it from the communication style.

The communication side is vital and schedule is an excellent point because I think authors should be prepared. It's going to go out the window multiple times. Yes. It's usually because of the author. Life gets in the way and we get it. Most of our authors don't have the luxury of just writing. So there's a business they've got to take care of and their family and then the world happens around you. So I think if someone is really, really married to a certain schedule, that's fine. Often that happens if there's an event, but the schedule is a key piece. Then something as simple as technology. We work in track changes, for instance, and we have some people who are like, I've got to do it in Google Docs. Well, that really doesn't help us for version control and things that are important to the process. So those are also things that we're trying to sort of establish early, like this is the expectation, this is how we work to make sure the author can bend a little to meet us there.

Absolutely. Yeah. God help us all. If you get the handwritten notes back through and then you have to transcribe them into the computer, like, I'm sure you've done it, I've done it in my career, and we just need to get on the same page about how we're going to relay this information.

Right. Yes, definitely. And then yes, we've done that. We love you authors, we love you. We do. So now as we've kind of set the stage for some things that the author should be prepared to share. So now the author, let's say, is in the process of trying to vet these folks on their own. What should they be looking for from that editor? I guess it would probably be the reverse of everything that we just established.

You are really looking for timeline, fees, collaboration style, like ask those questions. You don't have to give your answers up front. Like an author who's going in through a publisher to find this creative partner, they are going to be giving that information up front. Instead, you are asking it in return and then vetting it. I think that a great way to think of this is like a first date. You're speaking with someone, you're understanding where they fall in their goals professionally as well. Like, are you working with someone who's at the start of their career and they're really trying to break out into that space that they have just such helpable potential? Or are you working with someone who's at the top of their game and they've got a wait list and they're writing books for celebrities, where do you fit into that matrix? I also think that when you're working with someone, understanding the clauses of non-disclosure and confidentiality are really crucial. I personally fall into the camp of confidentiality over NDA, simply because a ghostwriter or an editor, especially on the freelance market, needs to be able to say that they work on X, Y, Z projects, at least in a sales capacity, it cuts off their ability to make a living. Understanding what they will agree to, what you will agree to, vital upfront. It's just a reverse, as you said. Hearing the information rather than giving it.

I'm sure like me, you've seen so many projects in your career. Are there things that an author should be careful of because they are an absolute red flag? I can think of a few easy ones for an editor would be like, one is you're so married to your manuscript that you won't entertain the idea of changes, in which case the whole process is pointless, and that doesn't really set the spirit of a collaboration. So that would be a red flag for me, but perhaps you have some others. Yes.

The craziest one I ever encountered, and I've only encountered it once, is that the client wanted to move to where the ghostwriter lived, was in the process of a move and wanted to move there. I was like, in what world? Are we giving you an address here? No, we're stepping away from that. Aside from straight out stalking, whoever you're going to work with, I would say you're looking at making sure that they have that they are good with payment because you don't work for free. No one works for free in this industry, definitely not in this economy, so just don't do it. That, as you said, they're willing to take feedback and they're willing to think outside the box. I think, and I quote this all the time and shout out to Karen Rowe, who's the ghostwriter I know who gave me this line, but she was like, a good editor edits the ego out of your book. And if you as the author cannot let go of the ego, then you're probably going to butt heads with whoever's on the other side. It doesn't matter who it is, because ultimately your book is not for you. Even if you write it initially for you, the final version is for your reader.

That's beautifully said. I love that.

Thank you. Again, I can't take credit for it, but I use it all the time.

You give credit appropriately. Okay. Let's jump to the worst-case scenario. We're back in the author's shoes. We thought we had a vetted partner, and things just are not going as planned. What's an author's option at that point? I'm sure it varies according to contracts. Are there things that they should be thoughtful of when they're agreeing to the initial agreement so that they have some sort of an out that protects them? Can you speak to that kind of worst-case scenario a bit?

Absolutely. So my favorite clause is, no refunds for any payments made other than work that's incomplete. So you should never pay a full fee upfront. Like do not pay tens of thousands of dollars to a ghostwriter without seeing any work delivered. I prefer an installment schedule. And if you cancel after installment number three, you're not getting back to payment number one. Like you can redeem some of the cost, but then you're also saving down the line. A lot of freelancers also have kill fees, which again, in favor of for projects that just completely derail, but understand what that cost is. Like is that a value that you would pay to dissolve the relationship at that point? And then when you're going into a new contract with a different freelancer for whatever editorial process you're in, understand that they need some time to review the assets that have already been completed, because they can't pick up without understanding where you've begun and where you pause. So that could come with an additional fee. It changes the timeline a little bit. You're looking at what I like to call a fixer-upper project, which really just means you're giving it a little extra TLC. You're coming in and saying, hey, I know this has been your experience so far. We're going to reestablish the trust that you have with a freelance party. And then we're also going to make sure that the work has continued. We aren't creating the wheel.

Yeah, definitely. A lot of contractor analogies are in my head right now. Like, don't pay upfront, and establishing trust. And it's not dissimilar, I guess, in some ways.

No, it's very similar. I mean, it's a creator gig economy that you're working with.

That's super helpful for authors who are just starting their publishing journey. Any other recommended resources or tips that you would provide for them at this stage?

Definitely do your research. I cannot emphasize that enough. I say do your research on everything. The EFA, the Editorial Freelancers Association, has a really good resource on the different types of editing. Their rates, in my opinion, are slightly below what I see on a day-to-day basis with the editors and ghost writers that I would use. But it's a good baseline for estimating what your costs are. Anything that goes above and beyond. So if you're going to do a different schedule, if you're going to expedite, if you're going to do in-person calls, whatever it is, know that that usually adds up the price. I personally love reading Substack right now. I think it's a great place for tons of information. And just give a little less thought to what you see on LinkedIn all the time. All the people who are like, I did this and that. I think we all know that it's an echo chamber of success stories and positive spins on times. So stay skeptical, stay nimble, and stay authentic to your project. You'll get there. You just need to put in the legwork.

Sounds like a great resource for them. You also just gave me an idea for a podcast, which is just failures.

Oh, yeah.

Keeping it real episode.

Yes.

All right, Rose, and if anyone wants to reach you, where can they find you?

My website is forewordlitconsulting.com. Foreword spelled like part of a book, not the motion. And then I'm also on LinkedIn, Rose Friel.

So Rose, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you so much. I look forward to seeing all Greenleaf does. Thank you.

That's it for our episode today with Rose. We hope you enjoyed learning about building a relationship with editors and ghost writers. For more information about today's episode, visit greenleafbookgroup.com/episode96. You can also find advice for writing, publishing, and promoting your work in my book, Ideas, Influence, and Income, which you can learn more about at ideasinfluenceandincome.com. A big thank you to Madison Johnson, who produces the published podcast, and to our five-star reviewers. Thank you for your support, and we will be back with another episode on the last Tuesday of next month.

Learn more about Rose Friel here.