Welcome to episode 69 of Published. Today I’m speaking with two members of the Greenleaf family: Jen Rios, our director of marketing, and Lee Reed Zarnikau, one of our editors. We’ll be discussing rejection in the publishing world from a marketing and editorial perspective to explain why a book might be rejected and what authors searching for a publisher can do after being turned down.

Welcome to Episode 69 of Published. Today, I'm speaking with two members of the Greenleaf family. Jen Rios, our Director of Marketing, and Lee Reed Zarnikau, one of our editors, will be discussing rejection in the publishing world from a marketing and editorial perspective to explain why a book might be rejected and what authors searching for a publisher can do after being turned down.

00:41 – Welcome back to Published. In this episode, we're talking about something nearly every author deals with and something every author dreads.

· Even the most successful authors were likely turned down by several publishers and agents before they found the right fit.

· It can be hard to let other people review a manuscript you've spent so much time with. But in order to get your book published, you have to open yourself to criticism.

· There are a number of reasons a manuscript might be rejected. And today, Jen and Lee will go over the common reasons that publishers turn down books and share their suggestions on how to rally and use that feedback to improve.

01:23 – Jen and Lee, welcome to Published. Why don't we start by each of you just telling our listeners who you are and what you do at Greenleaf?

· Jen: Sure. My name is Jen Rios. I'm the Director of Marketing here at Greenleaf.

· Lee: And I'm Lee Reed Zarnikau and I am one of our editors.

01:38 – Thank you again for joining us. Today we're talking about rejection, everybody's least favorite topic. Let's just jump in, what are some of the common reasons why a book might get rejected? And we're talking about a manuscript really at this point on the editorial side, and then from the marketing side. We'll start with you, Lee.

· Lee: Okay, so on editorial, one of the biggest reasons is that the manuscript just doesn't match what the agent or editor or house is looking for. And that's something that sometimes you can know ahead of time. You can go out and research. They have submission information on their websites, a lot of agents have manuscript wish lists. But sometimes there's a reason that has absolutely nothing to do with you, such as maybe their plate is full. So sometimes you know, and sometimes you don't.

· But other reasons would be that the books not really ready, meaning that it still reads like a rough draft. And then the other reason could be even if it's clean grammatically, there might be a writing element that needs some work, it could be that the arc of the book doesn't feel complete, that there may be some need for more clarity or depth of the concept or story. For fiction, maybe there needs to be some more character development. For any type of book, maybe the voice needs to be strengthened. So, any of those types of reasons from just the writing point of view.

· And I think it's good to give agents and editors a little bit of grace. And remember why they do give you that detail about what they're looking for. There is maybe, as a conservative estimate, one to two million books published a year, and agents get thousands, literally thousands, of manuscripts each year. And they know that whatever they choose, those books are going to have to compete for only a couple of thousand titles that sit on bookshelves, and that they have to stand out in an online marketplace, out of literally tens of millions of books.

· I think it's helpful to keep in mind the perspective that they're coming from that they have a lot to get through. And if you can make it easier on them by really paying attention to what they're asking for, that's going to help.

· Jen: Oh, rejection is such a sad thing to talk about. But there can be a variety of things on the marketing side that can lead to that sort of answer that you don't want to hear, that 'no.' One of the big things is really the author and just not having a really strong network or platform to tap into.

· These days, authors are really being encouraged to be an active part of that promotion of their book. And if an author comes to a publisher, and they really haven't taken that time to sort of cultivate that network, or build their platform, what's ultimately going to happen is they're going to have a really hard time getting the word out about that. And that's going to be one of those things that can lead to a publisher being a bit reluctant to want to move forward with that project.

· Some of the other reasons from a marketing standpoint could just be content. Is the book timely? Is it relevant? Does it have things that are in the news right now? Things like that can really contribute as well, in terms of a 'no' when it comes to marketing and wanting to move forward with a publishing deal.

05:34 – Now, for those who have not experienced the joy of receiving a rejection letter, what type of feedback should they expect to receive in that letter? And is it ever appropriate to go back to the source once you receive that letter, and maybe try to make your case?

· Lee: It really depends. It depends on the agent or editor. And also, what they send back to you really does vary quite widely. If the book or the manuscript is just not a fit or not ready, you're likely going to get a form letter from that agent or editor. And they will all look about the same that you know, thank you for submitting, this isn't right for me, there's a lot of agents and editors out there, I wish you the best of luck, you know, you'll know it when you see it. And when you get that I really don't recommend reaching back out, they've already taken a look and just felt like it wasn't a fit, I wouldn't reach back out for that particular manuscript. That doesn't mean you couldn’t go back with a different manuscript later. But for that manuscript, I would say that's a hard 'no' from that person.

· However, if it's not a form letter, then that kind of depends. The first thing I would do is go back to their submission information on their website and see if they have any specific direction on that because many do, many will either say, a no from anybody in our agency is a no for the entire agency, please do not reach back out. They will specifically say that. Others will say no from one agent does not speak for the entire agency, you are more than welcome to query one at a time, and move from one agent to the other, just please don't do it simultaneously.

· And then others don't say anything at all. So, if you don't have an instruction from their submission information that says please don't reach back out, then I think you need to then look and see how encouraging they were when you were sent a rejection.

· And you can get rejections from agents or editors that see a lot of potential new work, but they may not think they're the right person to represent it. And if so, you'll be able to tell because they will probably say that, and then also have a lot of encouraging words for you telling you what they liked, and then letting you know what needs room for improvement. If you get that, that doesn't happen very often, it's not done lightly. I would really encourage writers and authors to take that as the gift it is intended to be that somebody took the time to give you that information. You might need a little help unwrapping that gift, if you're not familiar with the vocabulary that's being used in the publishing world, or if you're not in the space at that moment to be objective about your work.

· But if you feel like that you can and want to address the topics that they say need to improve, and they don't say explicitly, please don't reach back out, then you could follow up if you feel like you can address their points directly with the changes in your manuscript.

08:20 – Good advice. Now, we all know that rejection, criticism, failure are very powerful forces that for some people might actually be crippling them to where they're afraid to submit whatever they've done, period. What advice would you give somebody who's dealing with that intense fear of criticism?

· Lee: Well, I think from my point of view, I always say remember that the people you're contacting are in their jobs because they love writing, and they love books, and they really do want to help people succeed. But just keep in mind those numbers I mentioned earlier, they have a lot to get through. So, if they are short with a response, it's not because they don't care, it's because they have a lot to do. Keeping that in mind is very helpful to know that everybody really is rooting for each other.

· The second is remember, you're in really good company. Every single writer has faced many a ‘no’ of one type or another before they got a ‘yes.’ I don't think there's an exception to that rule.

· And the last thing that I think about myself is I've come up with this phrase that I use, which is I like to call this redirection instead of rejection. Definitely, you want to put your best work forward, but also go into this process prepared to get some new direction to help your work, find its audience and find the right audience. Even though that form letter often says I'm not the best fit. Those words do mean something. And that's often what you're being told, that this isn't the right work for me. That doesn't mean it's not good work.

· Jen: I will just jump in on that as well. And I want to talk about my mom, because my mother used to always tell me, when I would doubt myself or think that I was not going to succeed at something, she would always just tell me to go ahead and just move forward and take that leap. And you never know until you try. I heard that a lot growing up. And I think that's really relevant to the conversation that we're having right now, that fear can be really overwhelming. But if you let that sort of own you, and you don't take that leap, you never know what that outcome could be.

· I would say try to put yourself in a mindset where you are not thinking negatively, but you're thinking primary positively. And, you know, try to let go of some of that fear, which is I know is easy to say, but just try to go for it. And also, if you do get that 'no,' try to frame that as not so much of a rejection, but more of just a chance to really look inward and take a look at your project. And don't take the 'no' as a criticism, but as a chance to kind of shift that focus and redirect and make it a positive thing.

11:00 – We talked about those form letters. And some of them may be sort of midway between a form letter and something that gives you a little specific feedback. And it's quite likely that that letter may say something like, you need to build your author platform. So, Jen, for people who are new to that phrase, can you talk a little bit about what it means to have an author platform and how one goes about beginning to build it?

· Jen: Sure. So having an author platform is really just building a network of folks that are interested in what you're doing, and interested in what you have to say, there are a variety of ways you can make that author platform or start to build that. Social media is a great way a lot of folks start to build a really strong organic platform by using social and just keeping people abreast of what they're working on, the progress of their project, giving sort of snippets of different things that are going on in their book.

· Other ways to build a network could be using email newsletters, to sort of help get your content out there and help you sort of cultivate a group of people who are interested in hearing what you have to say. And then also just not being shy and just being vocal, which I know Austin can be hard as well, but just not being afraid to talk about what you're working on, not being afraid to tell your colleagues and your friends and your family that, hey, this is what I have going on in this book project that I'm working on. Those are just some small ways to sort of like move forward with building your platform.

· Blogging is an excellent way to do it as well, because you can sort of get a taste of what you're working on out there in the world. And then you there's other ways too that you can work on building that platform, and one of those ways would be to work with a brand strategist that can provide you with a strong roadmap of how to tackle that platform, building mountain. The earlier you can start climbing that mountain before you publish that book, the better off you're going to be for sure.

· The good news is that there are many, many tactics that you can take to start building that platform that aren't too arduous and don't cost a lot of money that you can be doing so that you are set up for success when the time comes, and you're ready to publish that book.

13:46 – And Lee, let's suppose that that letter has some specific feedback related to the quality of the content in the book at that point. I'm thinking if I'm a writer, I may be wondering if I try to rework it on my own, should they bring in outside eyes at that point? What is your recommendation in that case?

· Lee: That also somewhat depends, I think, before I even know what to do with it, I usually take a moment and just think, that did hurt and acknowledge it. Because if you don't acknowledge it, it's hard to look at it objectively. So, you know, I'm a writer myself, when I've gotten those rejections, I go ahead and let myself feel that. But then, you know, I put it away for a minute and come back, whether that's sometimes only a few minutes or maybe a day or two and come back and say, okay, I can be objective, and then really look at that advice.

· Whether or not to go out and get other help will depend on what the feedback is. Sometimes it's a mismatch between the way you've presented the material and what the agent or editor reads. For example, I've been in a lot of pitch sessions where I've heard people talk about that they have a mystery book and actually, they don't have a mystery in the way that the publishing world defines it. They have a book that may be an adventure book, or might be even a romance, but there's some kind of mysterious element to it. And they have said, I have this book that's got a lot of mystery in it. And it's set up a framework in the other person's mind of what it should look like, and then it doesn't match. So sometimes you're getting feedback on ways that you can change your pitch or your query letter.

· You might also get some feedback of where's the right home for you to start making connections with. It might be a smaller press; it might be something that's a different landscape than you thought of when you were first going out into this world. And that's also really important to tune into.

· And it might help you reframe your expectations of the right way to find your audience. But when it comes down to actually improving your work, if there's things that people said needs fixing, then I took a step back and say, can I fix that myself? If no, then if you have the budget, to get some professional assistance from an editor, that's a great way to go.

· If you have a small budget, but not a big one, you can do something I've done before, which is ask for some different editors to look at pieces and say, here's the feedback I've gotten. Here's a scene or chapter and can you give me just a little bit of feedback and tell me what you're seeing about what this person that sent me the rejection saw. And that can be incredibly valuable to help set you up to work on the entire rest of the manuscript.

· You can also go to your largest group or other friends, just be thoughtful about whether or not you feel they are good at giving feedback, and whether that's their skill set. Also be thoughtful about whether their lens is the same as your intended reader. If you ask your friends to take a look at your book, and it's intended for a young adult audience, and you ask people that are not in that audience, you might not get the feedback that helps you.

17:07 – Now, one piece of feedback on that letter that feels like might have a particularly high level of sting is that the book is not marketable. What would one do in that case?

· Jen: Well, that's a big question, Tanya. But there are definitely some things that can be done, when you get that really awful line that your book is not marketable. I'm going to echo once again, what Lee said, to take a minute and sort of let that absorb and think about it. But don't take too long. Because really, it's now the time for you to just refocus and regroup on what this project is and what it can be.

· I always like to tell people, really take that moment to think about what this book is about. And how is it going to appeal to other people, not just yourself. I think book projects are so personal to some folks, and they're so deep in it, and they're in the thick of it, and they've been working on it for years. They don't take that time to step back and be like, what does this book mean to an audience? You know, what would they want to read? What do they want to get out of the experience of reading this book? So I think a good place to start is really just thinking about it that way.

· Think about your subject matter, you know, is it timely? Is it relevant? Is it something that's in the news right now that can sort of ping someone's interest? Also, you know, if you're writing a book, in a crowded genre, which is often the case sometimes when they say the book is not marketable. Sometimes I think about, you know, fiction books, or even leadership or business books, think of ways to make your book stand out, like how can I differentiate my book from the others that are in the market right now? Is there a new technique you can introduce? Is there a new method? Is there a way to make that content, like I said earlier, more timely, or more relevant.

· And then one really important thing, though, and I did kind of touch on it a minute ago, was just thinking about who your target reader is, who is your reader, who's the person that you want to buy this book? That's so important. And what would you want to read if you were that person? And really thinking about how you can frame that. So make that book something that is more of a project with mass appeal.

19:26 – Well, we've been talking a lot about red flags. Let's talk about green flags, so to speak, when somebody is sending out their manuscript for consideration and evaluation. What are the green flags that publishers and agents are looking for what would make this particular author have the best possible chance?

· Lee: I think from the content side, it's people can tell when they read your work, if it's coming from a place of authenticity, if you have something original to say and if you have the commitment to truly make this a fantastic reader experience, they can tell that just from the care that you've taken with the work that you've delivered, and the query letter, or the pitch if that matches up with what the expectations are in that area.

· The green flag is that you are being you, and that the work that you've done, either on your own or letting people help you that you have used, shines by removing any other distractions, is really putting you a step above. Because if you let people help you remove distractions of either unpolished writing, or that kind of just scratches the surface writing that doesn't go deep enough, then people can say, yes, you care enough to get to the heart of what you want to say. And to do so in a way that it's going to really sing for this reader.

· Jen: Well, on the marketing side, I know you're gonna be shocked when I say this, but a strong platform will help a lot to get you into that green light side of things. But yeah, I mean, I can't stress enough how important it is to really just start planting the garden of building your platform early. I said that to an author, actually, about a month ago, I said, think of it as like, you want that harvest to come up in the spring, but you're not going to plant your seeds, like a month before you want your tomatoes to come up. You want to plant those several months in advance. And in this case, in books, you want to plant those sometimes even years in advance. But having that strong platform is really going to make a huge difference.

· And then also thinking about what your books about. Is it something that is timely? Is it something that is in the news? Is it something that's a hot topic, that's definitely going to pique interest to a publisher. And then also authors who have a proven track record of success is always sort of something that is immediately like, oh, they've actually done well with their last book, it's always going to be something that makes people's ears perk. But one big thing, too, is just showing the publisher that you're willing to work with them to make this book is success. From a marketing standpoint, if we see an author who's motivated and wants to go hand in hand with us to help get out there and get the word out about a book that's really gonna help us to make that book a success. So in the beginning, when they're pitching, it is nice to see that an author is willing and ready and able to jump in and do what was required to make the book success with us.

· Lee: I'd add on to Jen's point, the same is true on the content side as well. Once you've gotten a yes, I'm interested, there's still a long way to go before people are going to fully work with you on your manuscripts. And in those conversations with agents or further on with editors. You want to show that you have a collaborative spirit, and that you're going to stay true to your work. But you're still going to hear and take on the feedback and be willing to work towards where they see that marriage between what you have to give and what readers are looking for. If you don't have that collaborative spirit, then you may not get to that full end of yes, we want to work with you.

23:12 – Yeah, very true. All right, Lee, Jen, we're talking about rejection here. So, do either or both of you have your own personal story of rejection and what you've learned from it that you can share with our listeners?

· Lee: I'll go first. You can tell from my reaction of you know, take a moment to feel that pain. I felt that pain. It hurts, definitely hurts. I mentioned, I'm a fiction writer, too. And I have a lovely collection of both form letter rejections, and then also what I call "beautiful no’s." And those beautiful no’s are when that agent or editor took the time to step away from their insanely busy schedule and really actually told me what they loved about my work, why they're not the right fit, and the advice they had for me. And I've just learned to not give up. And to reach out for guidance and keep working, working and trying, trying.

· And I can give you an example of one with some of the things I mentioned before about how it's not all within your control. But yet, there's still things you can do. I was connected with an agent that chose my middle grade mystery manuscript as a winner from a category in a contest. And they that agent, unbeknownst to me, had just made a decision that she was only going to represent just that young readers genre, not even young adult, she just represented children's and middle grade. And she knew that I worked in more than one genre because I had in that same contest a manuscript in a different genre that was also a finalist. So that was something that she was aware of.

· When we were talking, she said, I love this. I would like to sign you on it, but I just have made this decision recently. And at the time, I said, well, I'm willing to focus on the middle grade. I'm not just saying that—that is something I'm willing to do is to just focus there. And let's see where that goes. And she said, you know, I realize it's common that agents represent multiple genres, and that sometimes authors have one genre here with this agent and another here. She said, but I've had a bad experience. And so, I don't want to do that. You know, that's outside of my control. And of course, my reaction, thank goodness, it wasn't on Zoom it was on the phone. But there's only so much you can do.

· Don't get discouraged. Again, I think back to the positive, which is okay, I won that contest. Obviously, there's something here. So, I sent this out to other agents. And I got two beautiful no’s that gave me similar advice. Great, I can work with that. I went back and went straight away to revisions. And I'm showing my revisions to beta readers, which is really fun getting feedback from 10- to 11- to 13-year-olds, I have to tell you, and it's been great. And it's made it stronger. And I'll be sending that back out, and especially to some contacts that have been saying, when you're ready, let's hear it soon. I just share that story of, you have to keep taking a look at the positive, look at the proactive things in the work that you can do. And let slide the things that you just can't do anything about.

· Jen: Lee, I love that you have a collection of beautiful no’s. That's awesome. And because what I'm about to share is a story of a not so beautiful no. I have had quite a few examples I could share but one that never has left my brain is the one I'm about to talk about. And it is something that happened many, many, many, many years ago.

· When I was in college, I was a journalism student. And I was very motivated and very excited. And I was applying for summer internships. And I applied for an internship at the New York Times for a summer reporting writing internship. And this is back in the day, you did not send your resumes via email, you sent them old school through the mail, and I put my clips and my resume all in a package and I made sure I had ample time to mail it. And to this day, I still blame the USPS because a few weeks later got a letter back a big envelope from the New York Times which I was convinced, this is it. This is it; I got my internship. And I opened it up, I pulled it out. It was my collection of clips and resume with a big red pen that had been scribbled across it “one day late to meet deadlines.”

· And in the moment, I was devastated. And I definitely had shed a few tears for sure. But I will say I never missed an application deadline after that. So, thank you to whoever was super harsh at the New York Times and did that to me, I appreciate you. I've always been very prompt. And it also taught me that if I was ever in a position in my career where I had to let someone down and reject them that I would do it in a much nicer way, which I have had to do in my career. And I've always tried to make sure to do it in as gentle of a way possible. A little bit of a lesson story of rejection. Obviously, I've gotten past it, but it's still burned in my brain.

28:18 – Those are great stories and y’all have been very generous with your time today. Any parting advice for our listeners?

· Lee: I think from the writing side, you know, definitely build your writing community. And that's true for nonfiction as well. I think a lot of fiction authors are more familiar with having writing groups and people that they can share with but even on the nonfiction side, there are plenty of authors out there that are going through that same pain of wow, I'm a successful person. And this is hard. Why is that? And then they can really gain from each other on that. But that writing community will help each other just every step of the way. And I would say this is an industry where persistence prevails in both, within yourself and then with going out there and trying. So if you really want it, don't give up, just keep going.

· Jen: 100% what she just said, be brave, take that risk, shoot your shot, do what you got to do. The worst thing you're going to hear is no. And the best thing you could potentially hear is yes, and that would be phenomenal. I would also just say don't forget to listen to the feedback that you get. And don't be afraid to pivot if necessary, if that's what it's going to take to make your book come to life and be a success. And I will end it with start working on your platform earlier. Early, early, early. Never too soon. And if you need help, we can always help you too.

29:50 – Lee and Jen, thank you so much for joining us on Published, really appreciate all of the wisdom that you shared with our listeners today.

· Lee: You're very welcome. Thanks for having us.

· Jen: Thanks. It was super fun.

That's it for our episode today with Jen and Lee. We hope you enjoyed learning about what steps to take after a rejection. For notes and resources from today's show go to greenleafbookgroup.com/episode69. You can also find advice for writing, publishing and promoting your work in my book, Ideas, Influence and Income, which you can learn more about at ideasinfluenceandincome.com. If you've enjoyed our show, please rate and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever it is you listen to your podcasts. It means a lot to have your feedback and helps us make sure we're answering your publishing questions. A big thank you to Eleanor Fishbourne, who produces the Published podcast and we will be back next month with another new episode.

---

ABOUT JEN

Jen brings more than 20 years of marketing, communications, and publishing experience to her position at Greenleaf Book Group. She has orchestrated successful book marketing and publicity campaigns for both the Perseus Books Group and Chronicle Books. Prior to Greenleaf, she worked as Director of Digital Communication for the Texas Medical Association, the largest state medical society in the country, and as Marketing Director for the Forté Foundation, a nonprofit dedicated to developing and inspiring women leaders. When she’s not working, you can find her searching for the perfect taco, learning to play golf, admiring dachshunds, and spending quality time with her son, Elliot.

ABOUT LEE

Lee Reed Zarnikau has been working with words for over twenty years. Her editing and writing experience includes freelance work with a wide range of independent authors, businesses, and nonprofits, plus over twenty years’ experience in sustainability strategy and communications. She has a BA in English and an MBA in Sustainable Development from the University of Texas at Austin and a certificate in editing from the University of Washington.

In her spare time, Lee is one of the archery coaches for her daughter’s middle school team and is easily talked into school volunteer work. She used to do triathlons but now is a recovering couch potato. A lifelong Texan, Lee has travelled to twenty-six countries across five continents, but has only managed to live in Dallas, Houston, and Austin. Lee writes book club fiction, middle grade mysteries, and has self-published a picture book that she both wrote and illustrated.