Welcome to Episode 71 of Published. Today we have our consulting team on the podcast to shepherd us through questions related to investing in the production of a book. Different publishing models have different degrees of required investment by the author, and different potentials for ROI. Most authors wind up financing at least some part of the publishing process. Knowing when to look into working with experts and what level of contribution and return you should anticipate will help you prepare for that well in advance.

00:00 – Welcome to Episode 71 of Published. Today we have our consulting team on the podcast, four of our publishing consultants, Justin Branch, Danny Sandoval, David Endris and HaJ Chenzira-Pinnock will shepherd us through the questions related to investing in the production of a book.

00:27 – Welcome back to Published. In this episode, we're talking about investment.

• And that could feel a little bit jarring given that for most of these podcast episodes, we focus on the craft of writing, marketing, and really producing a book. But ultimately, producing a book is producing a product and a product requires a product launch.
• Very often, we find that authors get to the point where they're weighing their publishing options, and they're simply not prepared to understand the different levels of investment that may be required of those options. We're trying to pull back the veil and give you some clarity on what you might be looking at as you explore taking your book to market.
• Different publishing models have different degrees of required investment by the author, and different potentials for ROI. Most authors do wind up financing at least some part of the publishing process and knowing when to look into working with experts and what level of contribution and return you should anticipate will help you prepare for that well in advance.
• Today will help you understand what kind of investment is right for you. Danny, David, Justin and HaJ from our consulting team will walk us through different areas you can invest in, as well as the benefits, financial and beyond so you can make your most informed decision.

01:56 – Consulting team, welcome to Published. Why don't we start by having you tell us a little bit about what a consultant does at Greenleaf, because it sounds like y'all are part time freelancers by your title. But we know that's not the case.

• HaJ: Hi, I'm HaJ, and I'm one of the consultants here at Greenleaf. And first of all, I'd like to think that our job as consultants here is to make sure that our authors have a really great experience with bringing their book to market. And that starts off with communication by both understanding what the author's needs are, and also sharing what it's like to work with us as hybrid publishers and helping them to get there.
• Many of us as consultants are artists ourselves, or at the very least, have gone through the process of having an idea in our head that we're really excited about and trying to figure out how to make that real. So as consultants, we know what it's like to be in an author's shoes, and therefore like to consider us great listeners, empathizers, cheerleaders, but most importantly, strategists that they can lean on during this process in the early stages of helping to advise them on the best options to bring their book to market, whether that's ideally with us or on another path.

03:12 – All right, so today we're talking about investing in your book. So let's start out at a very high level, what does it mean to invest in your book?

• Danny: Hi, I'm Danny, also one of the consultants here. And to invest in one's book means to invest in something much larger than just a book, it means an investment in the future. That means developing your craft and investing in that one's artistic product. Practically speaking, it means investing time, money, lots of energy and creativity, blood, sweat, and tears, and all the rest. And all of this should be focused on something larger, down the line, which is building your audience. There's other professionals, you may hire designers, marketing folks, or you can hire a reputable team.

04:04 – Thank you, Danny. And of course, there are lots of different ways to publish between traditional, hybrid, self-publishing and a million iterations in between all those. So, what types of publishing contracts require an investment and in what areas?

• Justin: Hi, this is Justin Branch, the Director of Consulting for Greenleaf Book Group. You know, it's rare for traditional publishers to offer much marketing support these days, if any at all. That cost is typically shouldered by the author, and they should just be aware of that going into it. It's also likely that they've incurred costs along the way editorially, to get to that draft of the manuscript.
• On the other side of the spectrum, there's self-publishing, where you're going to be covering 100% of the cost, the editing, design, packaging, distribution, marketing, and you're going to be acting as your own general contractor is going to be assembling that team of designers and editors and distributors and marketers.
• In the middle would be a hybrid publisher and you're still going to be investing in services like you would with self-publishing. But in exchange for that you're getting the expertise and guidance that you would expect from a traditional publisher, as well as higher royalties on the back end.
• So regardless of path, you should plan on investing in your book, it really just comes down to determining which option is right to use. You can be strategic with the plan and with your budget.

05:28 – And as an author is weighing those options, how do they think about the benefits of investing in their book?

• David: This is David. I'm another consultant here at Greenleaf Book Group. And to continue on one of Justin's points, if an author does go, for example, the traditional route, marketing is typically an area where an author still needs to invest, whether it's in some of the more important book specific marketing initiatives, or if it's platform development, we're building one's brand, or some of the more traditional PR types of marketing initiatives.
• And you know, this kind of investing is going to be really critical for the sake of any book's visibility, discoverability, searchability, among the ocean of other books that are out there. There's a lot of noise that authors nowadays and for the last couple of decades, quite frankly, that they need to cut through to have their book be able to be found by people who should be finding their book.
• But with non-traditional or the self-publishing route, however, it usually comes down to an investment in a lot of other aspects, like the other consultants have already touched on, whether it's editorial, production, distribution, possibly printing costs, but also that marketing as well. And once the book is out there, it's out there forever. So, an author really just gets one shot to do it right out of the gate. And editorial is probably one of the most important parts where there's no such thing as working with a good, experienced editor too soon, because this can likely make the difference between a good book and a great book.

07:09 – And I suppose people who are listening are thinking like, give it to me in dollars and cents. What types of ranges are we talking about here?

• Justin: It's almost like pricing a house in the sense that, at the end of the day, it all kind of depends. And the goal is obviously to make sure that every dollar goes towards the things that matter most. So, with the book, there's only so many things you can control. You do want to make sure that the things you can control are best in class. And that way, when you face those things are outside of your control, you’re in the best position to be successful.
• If you're self-publishing, you might be able to get away with a budget of under $10,000, which for some books, that's going to be perfect. But just keep in mind, like anything, you tend to kind of get what you pay for. So, make sure that your expectations are in line with what the probable outcome will be on that side of things.
• Reputable hybrid publishers, typically, you're going to start at $25,000. And go up from there. If you go the traditional route, you need to still of course, be thinking about working with a PR firm. In typical PR firm engagements that have retainer types of models, so three to six months, at a monthly rate of anywhere between $3,000 and $10,000.
• Unfortunately, there are scalable areas of this entire process. Editorial should always really depend on the length and condition of the manuscript and at what point you're engaging with the editor. The first round of book sales often come down to great marketing, distribution, and cover design. But longevity comes down to great content and ultimately, your reader becoming your salesperson. Investing a good editor, to kind of piggyback on David's point, is really important and really critical.
• On the other side, when it comes to scalable things, the marketing is really scalable. I'm talking about marketing, platform building, digital media outreach. You want the partners you're working with to first be able to narrow down from all the things you can do to the things that you should do. What have they seen to be most impactful? What moves the needle? What's the right mixture between those items to give you the most push out of the gate? And then from there the things you should do, you can kind of work with them to narrow down to what makes the most sense for your budget. And this is going to get you where you want to go but at the right price.

• Tanya: Yeah, excellent points. And wanted to add something here. I think as people are hearing us talk about money, money, money. It's certainly not to diminish the art of the book itself and the fact that you're creating this thing that is hopefully going to live in perpetuity as a passion project. And I think sometimes that is what can get an author in trouble. There's this magical thinking, right, I've created this beautiful work of art and the universe is going to take care of this beautiful thing, but we have to kind of put on our business hats and think about it as a product, it is a product.
• And I think I've seen authors in the past where once I can get them to that shift, where it's a product, and we're going to start thinking about a product launch, which requires areas of investment and strategic thinking, and some business decisions along the way, then this whole conversation about investing feels a lot more normal, if you will, or feels like there's a more proper place for it. So, I just wanted to throw that in there in case anybody is listening to this going, why are we talking about investing? I'm writing a book. It is a product if we're taking it to market.

10:37 – When should an author begin thinking about investing in this product?

• HaJ: To that point, I don't think most authors or creators, start with the idea of like, okay, here's my budget to create something. It really starts with passion, an idea, something that you want to convey to market. But the moment that you realize that you want to make this idea real, that's the time that you should be thinking about investing. How am I going to really bring this to life and make it tangible?
• And to your point about the universe, yes, the universe will take care of it. And there's this kind of deception there. You are part of the universe, you have to make it happen. And you kind of driving the action is what helps to bring the magic.
• Also, I always tell people that I've never met an artist, a creator, an author who was not their first investor. Even authors who take a traditional path of traditional publishing and get an advance, you're still making an investment because it comes off at the back end. So, at some point, you have to kind of put some skin in the game. Also, by you doing that you're creating a main movement. You're saying to the world, this is real, something to get behind. So again, when you want to make it real, that's when you should think about making that investment.

11:59 – And as they're thinking about this investment, obviously we've given them some pretty broad ranges and possibilities here. So how does an author hone in on the level that's right for them?

• David: That's a tricky one, but a common question. And there are several factors that can inform this type of decision. But really, an author should ideally zoom out and look at the level of appropriate investment, and the goals that they have for the book.
• For example, if an author wants the book to be a tool to drive business or get new clients or get bigger and more paid speaking engagements, this investment landscape might very well look a bit different from an author hoping to publish a memoir, or children's book, or cookbook, for example.
• And again, traditional publishing typically requires a lower upfront investment, but an author going this path is still very likely going to need to invest in marketing and promoting the book to make sure that people can find the book. However, not every author can invest a lot of money, some can't invest much at all, and pursuing a traditional publishing route might make more sense if they're comfortable with, first off, the difficulty of securing such a deal, but also with the other associated challenges, the risks, and ultimately forfeiture of control and ownership of their contents.

13:20 – Excellent, great answer. Again, thinking about these investments, the next step for anybody listening is like, okay, I make this investment, then what's the return? That's the magic question. So how do they think about that? And how do they set expectations on that front?

• Justin: There's so many exciting moments in the journey of publishing a book from when you complete the first draft to seeing the cover for the first time, to holding a copy of your book, or seeing it in a bookstore, or doing your first interview. But of course, another great moment is when it starts to pay off financially for you. And there's a number of different ways that authors can typically monetize their books.
• For example, I can divide it up into six buckets off the top of my head.
  • One is physical book sales. So, selling of the actual hard copy of the book.
  • There are eBook sales, of course, audiobook is the third format that is gaining popularity very quickly.
  • There are sales of rights, so this could be foreign rights, this could be film rights, just kind of depending on the genre.
  • There are direct sales, so a lot of authors may be speakers or consultants and coaches and they're able to sell the books directly in bulk or individually as opportunities come up.
  • And then that last bucket can sometimes be a really significant one. And that is, what kind of opportunities are created for an author as a result of the book being in existence. So, for example, if the book aligns with their business or their brand, the book might be a great tool to raise their visibility and drive some of the higher margin pieces of their business.
• And all of these things pay off at different rates, of course, but they all kind of rise together, the more books we sell, the more opportunities that are created, the more visible the author is, the more books we sell. So, they're all paying at different rates, but they're all rising together.

• Now, unfortunately, it's impossible to predict how many copies a book will sell, and no book is ever published, no TV show is ever produced, no movie is ever made with the intention of it not making money. But the reality is, it's an incredibly crowded marketplace. And some books will perform better than others.
• And even Greenleaf, we've had over 50 New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers, which to get those lists, you're usually moving at least 5,000 copies to 15,000 copies in a week. And we've been fortunate to have successful books, we've also had wonderful books that have struggled to find an audience in retail. And unfortunately, that's the nature of the business. And it really comes back to making sure that the things you can control are best in class, and that way, when you face those things that are outside of your control, you’re in the best position to be successful.

• Tanya: Definitely. And I'm also going to add, even though yes, it is a plug, the "income" section of my book, Ideas, Influence, and Income is all about monetizing your book. And I worked really, really hard to make that actionable. So, if you're still wondering, how am I going to get the most financial impact out of the investment of time and money on the front end? Please just go straight to that section of my book.

16:26 – So success, when you're investing in your book, what does it look like?

• Danny: Well, success looks like a bunch of things. I think, practically speaking, it means being very proud of the product, looking at it and feeling like yeah, this fits my vision, this suits who I am, and it certainly is what I want to share with the world. I think it's also having a process that you respected, and a team that you really enjoyed working with. And especially one where you feel like we all really gave it our best to make this book as good as it can possibly be. I think that's also a successful parameter.
• Social proof, you know, reviews, four-, or five-star consumer reviews, professional accolades, all of this is more evidence of success. And this should all be pointed towards that larger goal that everybody's been sharing about, you know, how are you going to make an impact? Is this driving business? Is it driving awareness for a social cause? Are you trying to make policy change? So, success means seeing some influence on the audience that you're trying to make a difference with.
• And then lastly, I think the most important part around success is that you continue writing, you get back to the next book, because it's a noble action. And we're all here for a good reason. So, I would say, you know, those are some of the ways in which success looks.

• Tanya: Those are all very important. And I think this is a good little spot for a rant that some of you who've worked with me for a long time have heard.
• I think this conversation is very important, particularly in the world of publishing, because I come from television, originally. And I was very struck when coming over to this side of the media business, that there's this sense that money should only flow one way from publisher to author and in a lot of parts of our industry that persists. And there are even contests and awards and so forth, that authors are not welcomed to participate in if they've self-funded their book.
• And it just struck me as the oddest thing, because if you are not, and to your point HaJ, if you're not investing in your own work, you should be first. And in any other part of the media industry, film, for instance, you fund and produce an indie film, you're the darling of the industry. So, it's just this very strange legacy way of thinking about things and business models. It's ultimately a business model choice in our business. And I think it's important to sort of try to shed all of that historic stigma and just think for yourself through the business questions, the priorities around the product and the project and make these decisions with an open mind.

19:04 – Thank you for all of that advice. And I'll just open it to the group, any parting feedback or advice for our listeners?

• Justin: I think the thing that comes to mind first is surround yourself with a quality team. You put a ton of your time and your energy and your heart into your book. Make sure you surround yourself with professionals who know what they're doing and share your vision and have a vested interest in helping you find success with it.

• David: I think that's a great point. And I'll add to that do the research. You know, don't just jump into the process for the sake of getting the book out there as quickly as possible. Authors typically work on their projects for years and get one shot to do it. And once it's published, it's out there forever. Talk to lots of different publishers, talk to some of their authors, find out what the process was like. Then look at some of their books as well and make a far more informed decision.

• Danny: Yeah, my parting thought I've already mentioned, which is write, write, write. Lastly, keep your audience in mind. It's who we're speaking to and we're doing this for.

• HaJ: And I'll say, take the journey. It's always more fun to take the journey. Don't let the fear of the unknown stop you from taking the journey.

20:17 – I love it. Well, HaJ, Danny, Justin, and David, thank you so much for joining us on this historic five-person episode of Published it's been a joy.

That's it for our episode today with Justin, Danny, HaJ and David. We hope you enjoyed learning about how to invest in your book. For notes and resources from today's show go to greenleafbookgroup.com/episode71. You can also find advice for writing, publishing, and promoting your work in my book, Ideas, Influence and Income, which you can learn more about at ideasinfluenceandincome.com. If you've enjoyed our show, please rate and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever it is you listen to your podcasts. It means a lot to have your feedback and helps us make sure we're answering your publishing questions. A big thank you to Madison Johnson and Eleanor Fishbourne, who produce the Published podcast, and we will be back next month with another new episode.