Today we’re joined by Terrie Wolf, Literary Agent & Rights Manager at AKA Literary Management. If you want your book to be read around the world, there’s a good chance you’ll need to publish versions in different countries, and also have your book translated into other languages. In this episode, Terrie will explain the difference between foreign and translation rights, how to negotiate with publishers outside your country, and what an author should know if they want to publish internationally.

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(Transcription is auto-generated)

Tanya: Terrie, welcome to Published.

Terrie: Thank you. Thank you. Nice to be here.

1:05

Tanya: Yeah, we're happy to have you today. We're talking about something very new for this show, and something I think will be of great interest to our authors. So why don't we have you start off by telling us a little bit about you and what you do.

Terrie: My name is Terrie Wolf, I manage AKA Literary Management. I am a literary agent and rights manager. So that means that I can do anything across the board from movie rights to translation rights to foreign rights to serialization — Anything that’s in those contracts that people are afraid of, that's what I manage.

Tanya: So let's talk specifically about the foreign rights piece that you just mentioned, or translation rights. So this is something that a lot of authors have a lot of questions about, and I think there can be a lot of confusion here. So why don't we start by just clarifying the difference: foreign rights, translation rights — what's the difference? How dp these play out, I guess, in your contracts world?

2:03

Terrie: Some people call translation rights sort of an overall term, as do they call foreign rights, an overall term. Foreign rights implies obviously, that it's not a domestic sale. So it could be anywhere from Canada to Venezuela, it could be anywhere you can think of that is taking books, that would be foreign rights. Translation rights, on the other hand, would be if I'm translating it into another language. So that's kind of long and short of it.

Further, with foreign rights, I can do anything. I can do film rights I can do the again, serializations, I can do anything. A lot of times I'll work with a company in that given territory, an example would be like Czechoslovakia: I do not speak Czechoslovakian well, so I have people who help me there. And we do all that we can to shop rights, whatever they might be.

Tanya: So foreign rights, we're potentially then selling the English language version, just in different territories.

Terrie: Right. The other side of it is much of the time when we talk about foreign licensing or translation licensing. Sometimes it's coming back into this country. So that might be, you know, if we have a book coming from South Korea, that would obviously need translation rights. And I'll tell you, for every agent that does what we do, they have a different definition. It's because it just depends upon what we're doing, how we're doing it, with whom we're dealing, so on and so forth.

Tanya: Makes sense. Typically, who negotiates these rights for an author?

Terrie: You know, it can depend. So if I'm working with a small house, one of the first things I look at is whether or not they're doing their own foreign rights. There are a lot of midsize, and even small houses and even large houses that tend to try and do everything on their own. And that's great. So if you think about sort of Big Five, that kind of thing, they obviously have big rights departments, I mean, several people working that will always be there. They know what they're doing. They go there on the ground all the time, every, every fair, every opportunity, and they have great connections.

Certainly, midsize publishers usually are working in that direction, or they have someone like me. Small houses, I would give it about half and half. I always look to see number one, are they shopping their own rights? And number two, are they doing it well?

So if they have, we'll just say 10 authors, and they've had the foreign rights or the rights capability for and then it will say three or four years and nothing's happened. That's when I say Look, can I give it a shot? You know, let me see what I can do. More likely than not I probably have a lot more contacts and they do and have more time for it. Foreign rights is not necessarily their first piece of cake. So getting published, getting network marketers, so on and so forth, as you know, that's the big part of the cake. So I just take it from there and see how we can work.

5:09

Tanya: Have you witnessed situations where an author is managing their own foreign rights? And I imagine you probably have some strong feelings about this if so.

Terrie: No, not really. No, there's some there are some people who have indeed independently published and who have done pretty well, I have to say. I'm one of those people — I think we're all playing in the same pool, so we should be kind to one another. And I love meeting with them and talking and finding out well, how did you do this? You know, what was your? What did you talk to? And how did this happen?

It depends upon what you're looking for, as an author. So if you're looking for, you know, I want to sell in, and I'll just say, Germany and France, you might be able to. If you're wanting to go broad, more likely than not, you're gonna have to make those connections. But I have to say, there are some independently-published authors who have done exceedingly well in all markets, actually. So I can't put them down for that.

Tanya: Good, that's a lot of work.

Terrie: Yes, it is a lot of work. And it does, I have to say when they do it, it takes away from that first thing on their list, which is to sell their book.

6:19

Tanya: So, let me use Greenleaf as an example. So. we obviously are producing primarily English language books, we do have a few Spanish titles, and then we distribute those not only domestically, but into the UK, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada. So we have the, I guess, the foreign distribution already in place. Is there a reason then, would the titles on our list benefit from different editions in any of those territories?

Terrie: Sure, absolutely. I'll give you an example. I worked on one that was published in France, and it was published in “French-French,” if you will. I ended up selling, also, the rights to accompany in Marseille. The French is just, just like here, there's a dialect difference. And so they took those rights, and then from there, we took them on to Austria and to Switzerland. So it was a different way to do things. It's not that French is so different, but by the same token, French Canadian is a little bit different than French in France. And that's why you'd call it a “territory” over country.

I know that I have one where I sold to most of Northern Africa and the Saudi countries, the United Emirates, so on and so forth. And it was a book that, there were certain places where it couldn't be sold because of belief systems, and so on and so forth. But there sure were a bunch of countries in there that got to see it. So it just kind of depends on where you're at and what you're doing, and on the material within the book. We have to think about who we are in the world and what the world is experiencing as well. So, there probably isn't one way to answer that question.

8:08

Tanya: Sure, it's complicated. So going back to, let's think about the authors who are listening to us today on this podcast, and maybe getting very excited about translation rights and possibilities there. How do they go about finding and hiring someone to help them with this?

Terrie: This is pretty small community, to be honest. Next week, I'll be coming to up to London Book Fair. And next week, I'll be getting ready for all of the people I'll be meeting with. So I can tell you right now, I think off the top of my head for book fair, I already have scheduled oh, about 300 meetings. So there are a lot of people in this industry. But there aren't very many people who are, let's say there are certain people who represent romance, people who represent business people who represent a nonfiction of different sorts. And by the same token, there are companies who want those things. So you do get to know one another quite well.

And so if let's just say that you have a business book, you would come to someone who like me, who represents nonfiction, I'm always meeting people, I'm fascinated by the number of people who want American properties. It's very exciting to realize that there's a whole world out there and our books can be a part of them. So you know that world and their and their marketing program and their list of speakers. There's nothing I just the other day I was I was looking at a book that I represent, and I sold rights in Poland. And there it was in their catalog online. And it's just such a great feeling to realize, wow, look, you know, there they are. They're there. So and it was a business book of all things. So that excited me quite a lot.

9:50

Tanya: Yeah, I always find it so fun to get those first copies of the translated version and see what they've done with the cover. Sometimes they just sort of riff on the existing cover and other times, it's like, wow, they’ve completely reimagined it.

Terrie: I find that the Asian countries tend to do a really beautiful, very artistic job. I had a foreign rights transaction in the Philippine and they actually had sort of a gold deckled edge, and the pages were deckled. And you know, it was just the most beautiful book, and truthfully, what they got was a paperback. And they just, they made it so beautiful. And I thought, oh, my gosh, every book needs to be this beautiful. So sometimes they beat us at our own game.

Tanya: Sure, it sounds like they put a lot of care into that one. As our listeners are trying to find someone who specializes in their genre, is there a directory or an online resource that they might access to start their research?

10:49

Terrie: Because I'm certainly biased, I would say to go to AALA American Association of Literary Agents, when you go, every one of them list whether or not they do foreign rights. Or you could go to the different fairs, the London Fair will tell you who's going to be there. Frankfurt, certainly, the Philippine market — there are so many fairs where people go, and there's that directory where you can look people up and that sort of thing. They can tell you right away whether or not they believe it will sell, so sometimes you have to move around a bit, see what will work with with their list as well.

Tanya: And on that subject, how do you personally decide or look at something and say, Yes, I think it will sell, or “travel” as we sometimes put it, when we're thinking about foreign right? Are there certain genres or subjects that as a rule, do better, or don't?

11:41

Terrie: I wish I could tell you yes. I would tell you a couple years ago, it was that way. For a long time, the Scandinavians had the market in mystery, for example. I mean, there was that little book about the Girl With the Dragon Tattoo. And, you know, everybody wanted those books. And we learned that they, they cornered that market for a long time. So I truthfully didn't sell a lot of mystery at that time.

You kind of have to view from their side of the fence, so to speak. So if they don't want guns involved, then I probably can't sell quite a few of the mysteries that we represent. If they are in a communistic country, they're probably not going to want a lot of business books that that talk about the freedom to do what you please. It doesn't mean that they don't want to learn, it just means they probably can't acquire it. So I mean, one of the things that I do when I'm at book fairs, I talk with hundreds of publishers, and learn what they can take. It's more about what they can do versus what I can't do.

The other part of it is, I think, sometimes if the book really gets to me, and it makes me think, and most of the time, I can say, this would go really well in somewhere. And usually I'm right. I mean, just because you know what their world systems are working, you know, foreign rights agents are always looking at what's going on in the world. So, interestingly, books about politics, that's not quite so popular, but business books about empowerment, books about bettering yourself in any way, I’ve had incredible luck with craft books, and, you know, people want to know what other people are doing, so one of my one of my most popular of all subjects, which is a little strange. Books on running, books on climbing, and books on biking; people love travel, and they want to know what that world is like out there. So those seem to work quite well.

Tanya: That's fascinating. So I don't know if it's still the case, but some years ago, I was hearing a glut of horror stories from authors who, basically, as I understood it, they would sell their rights to a specific territory — in this case, it was India that I'm remembering — and then they would see these unauthorized, differently-translated versions of that book, when they went to the book fair, or some other ways they discovered a book that they have no part or gave no permission to produce. So can you perhaps speak to the circumstances under which that might occur? And are there certain countries that an author or an agent would avoid because they're riskier than others in terms of their interpretation of copyright?

14:30

Terrie: Everybody has their own rules. So walking into that country, I have to say, what are your rules and I have to understand them quite vividly. I always present to the authors and or publishers that I'm dealing with. This is what they'll take, this is what they expect. This is what they'll do. I think a lot of the time we are expecting them to behave the way we behave, which we know is just worked for them on our part. But that has happened it has happened I think as time has gone on, and foreign rights have become much more popular. People watch out for one another.

I know we did a book, about the same time, I had published a coloring book for adults with a company. And it was at that height of the whole thing. And there was an author who had become quite famous for her work doing those books. And I was in Philippines and I walked down and I on here was this book. Well, that was the one book that she had not given permission to do rights. And it was only because it was too new. She was waiting to submit. And I'll never forget walking down the aisle, and they had just the cover. And when you open it up, there's nothing in it. And I thought, Oh, that's interesting. So when they have the cover, how did they do that? And to? What are they going to put in there for content? And when I asked, you know, the response I got was, while we're hoping that this becomes our book. I mean, it wasn't so much a case of pirating, as it was a case of wishful thinking pretty much. And no, they didn't get the rights to it. So the first thing I did was I actually called the publisher in the United States. And I said, I just need to let you know about this. Truly, we look after one another, nobody's out to take advantage of anyone.

Of course, there are people who are more forceful, there are those bulldog agents and publishers who want this right now. But I haven't really went into that. So I'm sure there are people who base it on a daily basis. But as for countries to stay away from or places to stay away from, some people have obvious feelings right now, of course with world events. So some people will say, stay away from those places I've done since the start of the Ukrainian conflict. I've sold Ukrainian rights. I don't know, I'm trying to think you're probably I'm gonna say nine, I think nine books. So the Ukrainians definitely want to read, they're definitely in need of reading material as are, by the way, Russian. So if it's not political, if it's not, if it's in any way, edifying, I think those books are okay. But they're, I know, agents that won't deal with them. Because it's, you know, because it's a longer wait time, it's a longer production time. So this is just something we have to face.

17:25

Tanya: That's the benefit of having an established agent, you know the good publishers and authors’ work is safe. Right?

Terrie: Yeah. From time to time, you'll find somebody who is having a problem. I know that every so often, when not too long ago, I had to do a cease and desist on a publisher who number one was not paying advances. And number two was not paying royalties, number three was not contacting us to let us know when the book is going to be published, or how that process is going on. And when you get to know your little, you know, it's almost like a little tribe of people that you've that you work with, and, and you know, what they want, you know, they're their business actions, so to speak, you know, that their practices and their flow. And so when you're not hearing something back, that's when you start to investigate a little bit more fully.

So I mean, it's not as that's not that much different than doing work here in the United States. Or I'll say in North America, but it's a little different share, every so often, people are having issues I I had a publisher in the Middle East who, because of of political situations, he was unable to make an advance payment, because they were not recognizing currency at that point. So he could send it but it wouldn't be received here. So you know, we waited it out. Things happen. That’s international business.

Tanya: Yeah, that's interesting. So you mentioned royalties and advances, let's talk about that a little bit so that authors can maybe get a baseline understanding of what they might expect. So I know that surely it varies. But maybe you can kind of give us a general feel for what — you're probably going to just look at me like I'm crazy — but is there a goal advance, a typical royalty, even a typical length of time that this book would be under contract? Kind of talk us through the particulars of what an agreement is like.

19:19

Terrie: Things have changed a lot since pandemic I think, not only of course, in this realm, but in everything. And it took people, it took books, and companies and everyone dealing with the publishing industry a long time to recover. So for example, I can remember when I worked with a company in Italy, and they produce beautiful books, I love working with them. They are exhilarating to say the least they have great ideas. They pay very well, they report very well, which is important. And then, of course we had this thing that happened. Number one, they were publishing about 100 books per quarter, or season I should say, they call it, some people call it quarter, some people call it season, but so give or take about 100 books per, so about 500 books a year. And they were down to, I'm not joking, they were down to about two books per season. So they were, they were hit in terrible ways.

We also experienced, of course, that shortage, that supply chain. While we were experiencing it, so was the rest of the world. So for example, I had a book that was going to France, and they couldn't do it, because the only paper that they could acquire was sort of the stuff that we would put a formal resume on. Well, as you can imagine, it would be very expensive to produce books on that. So we had to wait until they started getting paper. And the problem with that was then they started getting sort of that onion skin paper, but very thin, thin, thin paper. So and they would laugh about it, you know, the French laugh, and they say, you know, this is c'est la vie. This is the way it works. But, you know, the American was not so happy. I was not quite so patient, I think things have changed. I'm watching things kind of rural back around.

I don't believe that advances are as high as they used to be. And these are I'm talking about the larger countries. Five years ago, I could have expected maybe, who knows, 5,000 to 20,000 Euro advance. Now, it would be maybe, oh, you know about a 2,000 to 10,000 Euro advance? It just depends. It depends upon the company, what they've endured how well they've recovered. So there's not really a hard fast answer on that. And as for terms, usually it's 3, 5, 7 or 10 years. And if you do a three year term, that means that they get to they get three years to publish it and and promote it. Normally, at the end of that three years, if they're receiving good sales, just like an American company or a North American company, they would then ask to renew that contract probably for another three years. As for royalties, I used to rely on about somewhere between about nine and 15%. For royalties. I'm seeing a lot of offers for six right now. 6% is not a lot I actually received an offer a couple weeks ago that was at no advance royalties of 4%. And an a print run of 1000, which is not many books, most the time you're looking at some at least 2500, more likely 5000 or more. So there are certainly certainly other countries that are a little more frugal than we are when it comes to books. So that's something that we have to look at.

22:56

Tanya: Yeah, different market dynamics at play I'm sure. This is a question that comes up a lot for that translated work: Who owns the copyright?

Terrie: The author owns the copyright. Always. And it says in the book, there's this little phrase in English, which is so funny. In the middle of a book produced in Japan, it's still in English. Always, always, always the author. And that's one of the things that I make sure of, is that when I received that final proof, there it is.

People get confused by that, because they think, well wait a second, we translated it we should get we should get the rights. Not the way it works.

23:36

Tanya: And do you have a ballpark feel for how many books end up moving into that place we all point to, earning royalties?

Terrie:

I would like to say about 40% actually make it. And I'm not gonna say they were huge royalties, I'm not gonna say that they were huge advances. But that said, I always considered the foreign market to be kind of the icing on the cake, so to speak. First you have your domestically published work, and the way that that you do it, to do it in countries like the UK and Australia, so on and so forth. I consider that almost a mistake, even though it's not. And so those are the royalties that you think about, and then when these other things come along. It's number one, it's really fun. And number two, it's really, it's really interesting when you have that book sitting on your on your coffee table, and somebody says, “I didn't know that you spoke Portuguese.” “Well, I don't, but it's my book. People have been lined up,” you know, and, and it’s very exciting. So that's probably the best part of it.

24:41

Tanya: Yeah, I have one author who really got a kick out of how the Latvian version of his book, modified his name, so his name actually read to be like the Latvian interpretation. And it was this running joke of, “I’m huge in Latvia.”

Terrie:

“I’m so big,” yeah, yeah, absolutely. Latvian readers, I have to tell you, they spend a lot on books. And so people speak, when I say we have Latvian rights, I'm always excited about it. And they kind of go, oh, is this a good thing? Yes, this is a very good thing. And a lot of times you move out from there. We have to think about where those countries are located. I almost always went off, if I'm doing German rights, I can almost always do others: Danish rights, Dutch rights, Belgian rights. And because they see the book, they want the book. So it's not a terrible thing.

Tanya:

That's a good thing. You mentioned reporting a little bit back. What should an author expect? How much visibility will they have in this process, on how the book is selling and the promotion and so forth? Is it sort of you signed the deal and then you're out of the picture, or typically, what can they expect?

25:58

Terrie: And actually, I signed the deal for them a lot of the time, and I keep them as apprised as possible. When I find out, it's on the website, for example, or it's gone into the catalog or that kind of thing. I always send them information, you know, go here, look, look, look. And it's always an exciting moment, because something's happening. I think it's kind of like here, when we find out that our works are, you know, they've entered the Amazon space, or wherever else I saw my book at Target, you know, it's that kind of thing. I would like to say that foreign markets aren't as good about royalty statements, per se, or any kind of news as domestic publishers. Some are, some aren't. And part of that is because it's a different mindset. And they know that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. They'll let us know when they have any kind of news. And that's whereas us, you know, we're very into reporting, and we're very into keeping people aware. So you kind of have to juggle the two. Yeah.

Tanya: But typically, they might expect, let's say, an annual report?

Terrie: Yeah, they should expect an annual. I can tell you that there are certain countries that I never receive. And when I go back and say, gosh, you know, I don't have a royalty statement. And I'm wondering what's happened? “Oh, we'll get it to you.”

27:21

Tanya: So you've done this for a while now, can you maybe share some stories for listeners of authors who have benefited from publishing internationally?

Terrie: I think everybody publishes internationally and receives benefits. To be honest, I think it's a way of opening our eyes to that world out there, we forget that it's, there's more to it than us. I have one author who is published in, let's see nine territories. And I'm not going to tell you that the advances have been huge, or that the royalties have been even significant. But I received letters from people saying I love this book. If that's happening, I know it's a good thing. And trying to think of really great stories. I have one right now. And Ben, there you go. We talked about Latvia, I just yesterday sold Slovenian writes for one of my authors. And there again, you think, what does that mean? Well, it means that people are reading our books. So I don't, I'm less concerned with which story I guess I should say, and more concerned with the fact that how are we affecting the world? What are we bringing to the world that no one else is bringing? That's kind of my focus. And by the same token, there are some amazing books out there from authors elsewhere. And what do we need to see? That's something that I'm always thinking about, as well. So it's all successful? That's, that's the truth of it.

28:55

Tanya: Are there cases where, let's say for our business authors, having that book translated into another country leads to — many of them are using the book to drive their business, speaking or consulting. Have you seen something like that happen? I know, the language barrier might prevent that.

Terrie: I don't think it's the language barrier as much as the belief systems. So there again, if you're, if you're dealing with people who do not understand what we talked about, with the bottom line, and you know, return on investment they do, but if they just call it something different, where they mean that and the terminology is different. So I have seen actually, and I don't know if I'm I should be mentioning authors, I'm, I'm really happy with one of the authors that I'm working with, that you published, and he's doing exceedingly well. He just doesn't know it yet. Because it's all at the deal stage. And I'm so I'm so excited. When that happens. We're all I mean, he has, I don't know, four deals just holding right now. Oh, and another, I'm gonna snap to top my head 12, 11 or 12, that boom, these people are going to be reading His words and applying it to their business practices. So how could that not be a positive thing?

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Terrie Wolf is a Literary Agent & Rights Manager at AKA Literary Management. She is a member of the Cambridge University Alumni Association, Ringling Bros. Blue Unit, International Publishers Association, and several writing organizations, including American Christian Fiction Writers (ACFW), International Thriller Writers (ITW), Romance Writers of America (RWA), Sisters in Crime (SiNC), Sisters in Crime – Colorado (SiNC-CO), and Society of Children’s Book Writers and Illustrators (SCBWI). She serves on the CIPA Education and Literacy Foundation (CIPA ELF) board. She has served as a board member of the Colorado AIDS Project, Project Angel Heart, Colorado Cattlewomen, and Colorado Youth Rodeo Association.